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Trial members rule
20. December 2011 - 13:04
#22
Re: Trial members rule
Well, I'll explain detailed the meaning of this rule.
We found a consensus that the clan leader should take a liability for the database. The rule just formalizes it.
But as I've pointed in my lastest posts - there can be a situations while database under by same reasons hasn't been updated. It can lead to problems for usual players. EDS and Zaxtor were just an examples, we have much more clans with inactive leaders. The first example I can mind is a Style which left lucky and joined sneaky clan. If you take a look at his profile, you could see that now he consists in two railonly clans. Who's guilty? Marcus is. But in case like you propose if we don't take a "new members" as a rank related topic - he's not allowed to play CW (which he has tomorrow) or he will recieve an yellow/red card for multiclanning. Rank rule prevents this situation.
Offourse, Darkangel, you are free not to take this rule as a rule, you can also not to take PB/Pure rule as a rule or whatever else. The point is as far as it was implemented, you will have to respect it or you will be punished according to the current warning system. I won't even discuss such things, while you are officialy notice that you arent goin to follow one of rules.
I'm up to discuss this rule or any another, but if you realy want this rule to be deleted, you will have to give me a solid arguments not just like - we are lazy/it wasnt rank related and so on.
20. December 2011 - 13:13
#23
Netherlands
Re: Trial members rule
so, if i get it right !
I talk on msn with rayden that i leave RSQT.
He doesnt post in New clan members topic.
I talk with Blackfx and join Mi3.
He doesnt post in New clan members topic.
We play 1 hour later normal rank CW
Before we start that CW there is gonna be fus about me having the Mi3 tag or playing for them because the other clan is strickt to the New clan members topic and didnt read anything there about me leaving/joining.. some members and or the ref will disconnect that server just to watch in clanDB and scoll down to M ( Mi3 ) and check if i am registered in there clanlist... 30 min later we can start to play the CW because all of that has happend.
Instead it would be much easier for the REFs and Clan LEADERS to read 1 topic about official clan switch ( with out trails beeing mentioned )
This is a beter overview and you can easier control any clanhopper from switching between clans so fast it becomes uncontrollable.
20. December 2011 - 13:14
#24
Re: Trial members rule
wrote:Well, I'll explain detailed the meaning of this rule.
We found a consensus that the clan leader should take a liability for the database. The rule just formalizes it.
But as I've pointed in my lastest posts - there can be a situations while database under by same reasons hasn't been updated. It can lead to problems for usual players. EDS and Zaxtor were just an examples, we have much more clans with inactive leaders. The first example I can mind is a Style which left lucky and joined sneaky clan. If you take a look at his profile, you could see that now he consists in two railonly clans. Who's guilty? Marcus is. But in case like you propose if we don't take a "new members" as a rank related topic - he's not allowed to play CW (which he has tomorrow) or he will recieve an yellow/red card for multiclanning. Rank rule prevents this situation.
Offourse, Darkangel, you are free not to take this rule as a rule, you can also not to take PB/Pure rule as a rule or whatever else. The point is as far as it was implemented, you will have to respect it or you will be punished according to the current warning system. I won't even discuss such things, while you are officialy notice that you arent goin to follow one of rules.
I'm up to discuss this rule or any another, but if you realy want this rule to be deleted, you will have to give me a solid arguments not just like - we are lazy/it wasnt rank related and so on.
solid argument is:
in whole life of e+ wasnt such rule, so imo its not necessary at all.
pb and pure are totaly different things with this one.
All know marcus is ia a bit on lucky, so i dont think there will be any problem with style, since all in e+ know that story about lucky (ia clan).
solid argument is , we have clan db, its own resposability of a new player who joined some clan, to bother about his ex clan and be delated, you can always ask epsilon or some clan db moderator to delate you, since the clan or team is not active.
So what we have got?
New player who did joined new clan cos his old ex clan is ia, can easly call administrator by pm or moderator of clan db, to tell him the situation and be delated from that clan.
Its his own responsability of the new player to do such thing, and if he does not do it, he cant be part of anyother clan cos it will be consideration multiclaning.
Or for what we do have administrators and clan db moderators? to accept clans and teams and have 2500 them in e+? or make their duty and do their job what ask the player.
I guess its clear explanation of why we dont need such rule, since from all time we had this, players asked moderatos to delate them if the clan leader is ia.
So, no need to force clan leaders or co leaders or members, to write in that topic, i repeat, that topic is only and stricktly for ''information for excessiveplus comunity'' wich is not related to rank at all.
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20. December 2011 - 13:25
#25
Re: Trial members rule
During a cup "new clan members thread" is usefull. Beause here only you can see exactly when someone joined. A new player is allowed to play regular cw as soon as he joins, but usually in a cup he has to wait one game. If you don't care about this thread you should at least have the date of join after your players names in db (and still leaders can backdate it ...).
So apart from this thread we have no way to know when a player joined and if he is allowed to play or not [or are you supposing that we should watch all games to see if this new guy ( the one we did not know he had joined unless we know him/check all clandb regularly) was already in this clan as a spec on previous game, and since we don't know when he joined what happens if he waited one game but was not spectating to proove it?].
Call me paranoiac but we will have problems if there is no post required in new clan members thread, I bet my house on that.
And I really don't understand why some clans (or should I say ONE clan) don't want to do it (anymore cause yes ofc they did it in the past). What you dislike now in the fact of telling to community your moves? Why you want to do it secretly? As I tried to explain, there is a reason in posting moves in the thread so please explain me concretly what is the point in not posting?
In short I don't agree: both new clan members thread and clans databases are needed. The thread is the easiest way to check/proove last transfers and db is the best way to see the whole clan.
about trials (it's the point of the topic afterall..)
There are not members of a clan so they can but dont have to be listed anywhere cause they won't play cw anyway.
Imo they are just players who play fw with a clan (only one clan or more, I don't care) It's like mixed fw, you can play with whoever you want without commitment until you join one particular clan. There is no multitrialing cause trial period is for both, player and clan. They are both allowed to decide to not take/join after a while. If Y is in trial in X clan but had another opportunity which suits him more with Z clan then he can join Z as full member no matter if he was trial or not somewhere else.
20. December 2011 - 13:23
#26
Re: Trial members rule
Ofc this situation can happen but I would take this as valid argument if style is 10 years old. While marcus playing now and then (yesterday) the only thing which comes to my head is lack of communication. Wouldnt simple PM to you or thread solve it in no time?
Well doesnt matter who is lazy, I just wanted to cut off an uneeded rule which could make misunderstanding cases.
20. December 2011 - 14:59
#27
Re: Trial members rule
wrote:solid argument is:
in whole life of e+ wasnt such rule, so imo its not necessary at all.
pb and pure are totaly different things with this one.
All know marcus is ia a bit on lucky, so i dont think there will be any problem with style, since all in e+ know that story about lucky (ia clan).
solid argument is , we have clan db, its own resposability of a new player who joined some clan, to bother about his ex clan and be delated, you can always ask epsilon or some clan db moderator to delate you, since the clan or team is not active.
I'm sorry, but I didn't notice even one solid argument there.
The rules were not perfect, they didn't regulate a lot of controversial issues, such as this one. They are not perfect now, but more streamlined and clear to read.
I went a few examples that fall under the jurisdiction of this rule. And the current edition greatly regulates it. This rule doesn't create any interferences.
Take in mind that the community develops, and the rules should be developed together with it. An usual player shouldn't and won't bother self to ask an admin to remove him from any clan. To prevent misunderstanding the only one thing hes obliged to do now is a post in report topic.
Did any of you bother self to ref matches nowadays? Darkangel, Skull? Maybe Toxic or inactive Impius together with Beazt did?
At this moment, I only see a personal opinions based without any arguments, except "this topic wasnt rank related" and "it's gonna be a bad idea". Morever, the only one clan complains with a reason I don't know. Every others understood that this rule will only prevent a lot of misunderstaing cases.
I'll be back in this topic as soon as I will see a real arguments how the current rule would cause any mess. For the now this rule stays how it is.
20. December 2011 - 15:05
#28
Re: Trial members rule
I am not getting all that... sorry
Trial or not, the member status is up to the clan not the ranking in any of the terms duties and privileges. If a player pauses the round in most of the cups, who cares if its trail or not? If u think the rule is aimed in multiclaning or anything then u are wrong, its plain bureaucratic and it have none meaning, u just going to force clans to write instead of trial hes a full member and viola... The rule that trial members can't play in CW or CUP is pure nonsense.
As for the "new clan members" topic yes it can be used as a prove of joining date, but everyone can probably agree the clandb should have the joining date implemented, since it is a lot faster to just take a look in the db than browsing couple of pages and search for the confirmation in the topic.
I do understand why the new clans should ask the admin when the crate new clan entry, but i have completely no idea why they admin need to approve any of the changes in lineup, to get a time stamp of member joining? probably yes, but it would be far easier if the db would register the joining date of each member automatically...
Backing to the "new clan players" topic, and the leaders who aren't active or the clans that died and are forgotten but still are in the db. If there would be a time stamp in the database u can easily know if hes multiclaning or not... the player could request admins help in such situation, or even ranking mods or the db admin could make a correction himself, since one player can't play in two clans in the same cfg and he seeing time stamps in both clandb entries.
Probably some of u guys played games in clanbase or esl, can u guys write here if there is a topic to track all those player clan moves? NONE...
WHY? because they would be insane stupid to track that way such amount of players, while in clanbase every day would be around 100 new post in such a topic, so the cup supervisors would kill the smart guy who would invent such a thing...
Aside in every cup in clanbase, new clan member if they want to play need to inform the cup supervisor not the ranking, WHY? because ranking=leader and in leader there are no rules about one game delay after joining or anything. There are even a joining deadlines to prevent recruiting good payers, from clans that have drooped out, to use them in playoffs by the clans who still playing, so after the deadline new clan members aren't allowed to play anyway... And also in some cups i have played in, u signing in to the cup by writing the clan lineup together with players GUIDS !
Why the hell ranking admins trying to take control over CUPs? anyone have a idea? because i don't... Do it would mean now that new player to play in any of CW he need to pause one game before hes allowed to play in ranking? If that so why there is no rule about it? U guys making bigger mess that's is needed that's all. Messing up in CUP's while its not even yours jurisdiction and by implementing a rule about the topic priority allowing for even more mess in the clandb. GJ seriously...
btw. clandb even can not allow to have the same "username" in two different clans, but then it would need to make sections in the db like rail, excessive, plus and viola everything is done automatically, nobody arguing or anything...
btw2. @fps, instead writing a post in the topic player can write a pm to the db admin, it is the same...
20. December 2011 - 15:11
#29
Germany
Re: Trial members rule
Ok, skimmed most of the new posts and this are my thoughts:
wrote:
I won't even discuss such things, while you are officialy notice that you arent goin to follow one of rules.
Or with other words you won't discuss about a rule with someone who says the rule is so bad he wont follow it? Isn't that a lame way of acting? especially for a rank mod?
wrote:
there can be a situations while database under by same reasons hasn't been updated.
Its leaders responsibility to have clandb updated ANYTIME, means even if someone joins, he can first be added to clandb and then posted in new clan member comments, he can be removed from clandb without a posting. - Or with other words, clandb is always more up to date then new members thread.
I always tried to keep rules simple and affecting as less persons as possible, ergo clanleader doing most stuff, in case of clandb and new clan member thread its double effort we don't need. Neither it helps rank since rank doesn't include date of joins which is the only reason the thread got relevant, a post there is the official join of date - include a join of date into clandb and you are fine to go, but as said, join of date is irrelevant for rank.
Anyways, back to the point, I think it is bad that you punish a whole group just for zaxtors lazyness. Ban zaxtor and he maybe will learn to invest 10 mins into cleaning of clandb before going ia. In case of delay you can always ask the player in which clan he is in and what move he did, no need for everyone to protocol it.
If you search arguments for deleting the rule, we already mentioned a few, on top of that the best argument is that the rule doesn't bring any benefit to the ranking.
Another argument is, when we use new clan member topic as main thing, why we even still have a clandb then? How about every clan simply sticks a topic in their forum? duh.
For me this is just a idea of something, but not the way of how to do it. I disagree with the rule since every rule should only exist to make stuff easier, as shown it did NOT. And Rank is also only a service by e+.net for the community, or with other words fps, the community is your master.
ps: did you read my horizon comment under rank comments?
20. December 2011 - 15:25
#30
Re: Trial members rule
Fala, let me answer about the CUPS first. There was an implemented rule about it.
wrote:5. Ranking event rules should be brought in compliance with ranking rules.
That means that every ranking match played according to the ranking event rules should be played by ranking rules also. And in case of miscommuincation between theese rules - the game wont be ranked.Evenmore, ranking rules have a bigger priority than a rules estabilished by ranking event. By other words - event rules cant drop out any of ranking rules. But, ofcourse, event managers can include anything new like "a delay for newcomers" or even disallowing a clan at all.
At this moment, a current rule wont create any miscommunication.
Players cant be obliged to change their clanDB status, as soon as there are only clanleaders having right to. The only one thing is required now is a post into "new clan members" topic. That will prevent a lot of cases related to multiclanning etc.. A member writes a post, then he allowed to play any ranking games for a clan he came in.
Try to imagine, what big mess gonna happen if Ill delete "new clan members" topic right now. Every official referee is active and watching forum from time to time. Hes ok to check / ask other 10 people at the server about a movements. This topic is needed for our current rank/db system for sure. And from the now its just implemented as an official.
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As well for trials, if the guy is not written in clandb (doesnt matter if under trial section or what), he shouldnt be treated as member of clan at all and vice versa. That would mean that clan has responsibility for him with no excuses, and none can cry on forum that he have seen him and her then and there with this and that tag, who cares?
(.I tried to be perfect ,but nothing was worth it I don't believe it make's me real.)